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Post by LuciferIX on Sept 15, 2008 10:17:32 GMT 12
Well even though I'm Catholic (like apparently many of you) being someone who enjoys and respects the sciences I like to see proof about something, even if it is only in theory. I'm not really one for thinking that everything just popped into existence and stayed like that until now, in fact in my opinion anyone who actually thinks that is completely ignorant. Seeing as how no one has stated that they believe in creationism 100% I don't think that I insulted anyone but I am sorry if I did. Its just that even though there are gaps in our knowledge we have definite proof that evolution does exist. And thus its not possible for the original understanding of that belief to hold true.
There is a fine line that religion should hold over every ideal and the aspect of creationism just came to be due to out fact of limited knowledge at the time. Humans have been doing that ever since we gained the ability to reason.
Simply put I'm a lot closer to the atheism portion of this. I like facts and proof to back up what I learn and see. So needless to say I'm not much of a religious person, even if my parents make me go to church almost every weekend I go home.
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Post by Praetor on Sept 15, 2008 10:49:01 GMT 12
I wonder if religion or belief has anything to do with shipping alignments.
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Post by thedarkfiddler on Sept 15, 2008 10:51:55 GMT 12
I had that thesis with political alignment. But, it failed
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Post by Grand Warlock Naarghul on Sept 16, 2008 11:10:59 GMT 12
I think that everything in the world has been set up far too perfectly to have been an accident.
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Post by DaveTheFishandChipsGuy on Sept 16, 2008 11:38:21 GMT 12
Yeah, but just think how many galaxies there are in the universe. Then how many stars, then how many planets. It was bound to happen at some point, and it's most likely happened again somewhere else.
Basically, here's my beliefs: Race of Entities in micro-universe expand it, via Big Bang, creating macro-univers, our universe. Entities choose planets to watch over, with one choosing the young Earth. Entity sparks life by sending lightening into primordial ooze, resulting in self-replicating Proteins. Entity shapes evolution, raising world temperatures and dragging in Asteroids to cause various mass-extinctions. Entity reveals itself to the first 'intelligant' species, Humans, who name it God. Entity fuses part of its essence with Human DNA = Jesus, telling people to be good, and not to mess up the nice planet the Entity has been watching over.
That's pretty much it. Sounds far-fetched, I know, but it was the only reason I could come up with that mixes my beliefs of Evolution with Christianity.
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Post by Grand Warlock Naarghul on Sept 17, 2008 5:58:12 GMT 12
I'll believe in Evolution when I see a transitional form that isn't a National Geographic hoax.
And anyways, Evolution has far too many problems to be plausible, namely, the complexity of even single-cell organisms. If even a small part of these organisms is modified in some way, then the whole organism fails to function.
I started questioning Evolution long before I became a Christian. Namely, the whole story of sea life migrating to land and such. There is such a radical difference in how these species function that, there is no plausible way for one say, to become the other: as with the single cell organisms, many parts of the anatomy cease to function if they aren't structured a certain way, and there isn't any possibility of a go-between.
And then there's the problem with the DNA/RNA sequence. I'm not even going to try getting into that, because it confuses even me, but I've watched the diagrams and videos, and the system is set up to prevent mutations and such: in the case of these mutations, the result is often something infertile, making it impossible for the mutation to reproduce.
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Post by timoteyo7 on Sept 17, 2008 7:40:42 GMT 12
Woah.... I swear theres some Jimmy Neutrons on this forum...
I agree with Naarghul when he said earth was too perfectly made. Earth has everything, from animals working together to maintain balance to having the biggest moon for light at night and being perfect distance from the sun. Seems very farfetchd that a planet like this just spoofed in existence by accident...
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Post by DaveTheFishandChipsGuy on Sept 17, 2008 8:38:57 GMT 12
Yeah, but, as I said before, there are so many star systems in the universe, one was bound to have a planet 'the right distance' from the star for life to form. I would debate, but: A) I can't be arsed, and B) I suck at debating. Meh, I've listed my beliefs. That's all i can do really. Acutally, wait. You mean transitional forms like these? Tiktallik, Fish --> Amphibian Eryops, Amphibian --> Reptile Thrinaxodon, Reptile --> Mammal The infamous Archaeopterix, Reptile --> Bird Enjoy! {is a Zoology student}
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Post by Grand Warlock Naarghul on Sept 17, 2008 14:14:56 GMT 12
I see sketches. I don't see skeletons. If there are these skeletons, there are very few records of them. If Evolution were plausible, you should see billions on billions of them.
If I remember, Archaeopterix was eventually found to be a hoax: Apparently, a bird and a lizard died together and shared a fossil.
Also, explain the platypus.
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Post by Praetor on Sept 17, 2008 14:25:35 GMT 12
Wow, good points.
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Post by masterofmirage on Sept 17, 2008 14:36:33 GMT 12
since i'm a evolution n00b, nearly, i'm going to ask this: how many detailed, "proven" fossils has there been for evolution?
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Post by DaveTheFishandChipsGuy on Sept 17, 2008 14:44:46 GMT 12
OK then: 1. Read the articles, most of them have pictures of the fossilised skeletons too. 2. Fossils are incredibly rare. It is very rare that an animal dies in/near the exact conditions needed to fossilise its remains. Also, Evolution tends to slow right down for millions of years at a time, before suddenly speeding back up, resulting in a lot of transitional forms in a short amount of time, leaving less chance that one will be fossilised. 3. I've never heard anything about Archaeopterix being a hoax, as there are now 9 known fossilised specimens, all agreed to belong to the same species. 4. Yeah, the Platypus is random as, but it IS related to other mammal, specifically the Echidnas, and shares ancestors with them. Go here for more info, as I'm too tired right now. And something I forgot to mention before, I don't believe in the Bible that is pre-Abraham. Creation, Flood, Tower of Babel.......... I just CAN'T believe it. I've tried.
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Post by LuciferIX on Sept 18, 2008 17:13:23 GMT 12
Alright I think that many people here need a quick definition of evolution. Evolution isn't necessarily just the fact that one animal came into being from another, its the fact that animals change over time. It is proven that humans, just like every other animal, has gone through changes of the centuries.
When civilization was first being started in the various places of the world there was no adult human that produced the enzyme lactose, the catalyst that allows for the breakdown of the lactose found in milk. It was only found in infants due to the fact that they required their mother's milk as the primary source of nutrition. Once they got older it was obvious that the supply wasn't going to be used so the production of the enzyme was turned off. But once we started to domesticate goats and eventually cattle a new source of milk was created. As everyone knows milk is extremely nutritious and is great for the body. Eventually a mutation occurred and some adults retained the ability to produce lactose. Because of this mutation they had an advantage over the other humans that couldn't process the protein. Due to the success of the mutation it became more widespread and became almost a standard for the adult human.
And another more simple example is dogs. The Canis familiaris family covers every breed that we consider the domestic dog. Yet they are all the same species and can interbreed freely (at least when size is removed from the factors). At one point it was a single animal like the wolf and now through what could be thought of as artificial evolution by utilizing selective breeding we have over 800 recognized breeds all over the world. They come in every size, color, shape, and temperament.
And to answer the question about fossils about evolution I have to answer it with another question, how do you think that you should find a fossil proving evolution? Dave pretty much explained why its hard to find them in his post. Everything in nature is designed to resupply itself and feed the next generation. "The Lion King's" Circle of Life does a very nice job of saying that fact. Every molecule in your body is designed to be degraded by some other organism as its source of nutrition. Its waste products then feed another organism which in turn feeds another and another and so on. So there has to be abnormal circumstances for this process not to happen and those are obviously far fewer than the common occurence.
To finish this long post off evolution is a very slow process and in most cases takes generations upon generations to undergo. Darwin got a nice simple idea for it with "survival of the fittest". Mutations are very common, its just that they are either in an unimportant location, are fatal, or they make a slight change. If that change increases the ability for the organism to survive it is then able to pass that trait onto its offspring who then continue to have said advantage over the others. Eventually it becomes standard and the process repeats until you have two different animals that we can trace their ancestory back to a single animal yet they cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring. It is at this point that they are considered a different species.
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Post by XAOTL on Sept 25, 2008 5:05:46 GMT 12
Seeing as no one else would. Title has been changed.
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