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Post by RobSp1derp1g on May 8, 2008 10:38:28 GMT 12
okay, one that we can accomplish
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 10:44:16 GMT 12
We have discussed this topic before (ikarishipping thread).
So since Stormburst has summarize the early history of shipping, I will try to summarize the current standings of major ships.
Pokeshipping - A seemingly wilting ship that largely depends on contestshipping for survival. Currently still popular in the world of fandom. Unlikely to make a threatening return.
Contestshipping - Extremely popular ever since the roses, and the popularity gained a boost after May left for Johto. They are currently still waiting for new hints. I sense some frustration emanating from some of them because of the recent episode.
Advanceshipping - A ship that seemed to lose hope when May left- evident by the loss of supporters - until the recent turn of events. Advanceshippers who once had doubt in their ship are now returning, and the ship has made a comeback. Proof of it is in Serebii.
Notice that...
...pokeshippers may have been lured into a false sense of security by their cooperation with contestshippers.
...this large fanbase of pokeshippers and contestshippers may have influence over the writers. Just look at the official pairings of Harry Potter; the official pairings may have been influenced by the fans (I think I heard it from a friend).
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Post by cascade88 on May 8, 2008 11:58:21 GMT 12
We have discussed this topic before (ikarishipping thread). So since Stormburst has summarize the early history of shipping, I will try to summarize the current standings of major ships. Pokeshipping - A seemingly wilting ship that largely depends on contestshipping for survival. Currently still popular in the world of fandom. Unlikely to make a threatening return. Contestshipping - Extremely popular ever since the roses, and the popularity gained a boost after May left for Johto. They are currently still waiting for new hints. I sense some frustration emanating from some of them because of the recent episode. Advanceshipping - A ship that seemed to lose hope when May left- evident by the loss of supporters - until the recent turn of events. Advanceshippers who once had doubt in their ship are now returning, and the ship has made a comeback. Proof of it is in Serebii. Notice that... ...pokeshippers may have been lured into a false sense of security by their cooperation with contestshippers. ...this large fanbase of pokeshippers and contestshippers may have influence over the writers. Just look at the official pairings of Harry Potter; the official pairings may have been influenced by the fans (I think I heard it from a friend). Well, I, too, heard that JK Rowling ended up making certain pairings official just to spite certain fan bases, but I highly doubt that this would be the case with the writers for Pokemon. I mean, the Harry Potter storyline and the evergoing quest of Ash and company are two completely different mediums. While it could be true that the writers themselves personally happen to favor certain pairings over others, I highly doubt that they'd decide to make one ship canon over another just because a fanbase really wants it to happen. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 13:13:28 GMT 12
You are right, of course, the writers may be shippers themselves (though we probably won't know what kind of shipper. We should ask.), but the question is what do the writers consider a priority- the fanbase that would stop watching the show if it becomes more Advanceshippy or their personal shipping preferences.
Sp1derp1g and Ninja44 - How about promoting Drew and Misty (waterflowershipping, I think)? With all the pokeshipping and contestshipping fics they have written, the thought of Drew and Misty as a couple must have crossed their minds at least a few times. While this may not split the pokeshippers and contestshippers apart, it would do something even better, which is getting them to support another ship.
Sure it may be a "crack" pairing, but it can gain as much popularity as ikarishipping. With Paul's attitude staying the same, how would ikarishipping become canon?
While I don't like the idea of pairing Drew up with another person (because of his personality and attitude), other people clearly don't think the same way. So if they are willing to pair Drew up with someone, why not Misty? All we need is a quality story that begins with pokeshipping and contestshipping and end with waterflowershipping to convince readers that Drew and Misty make a better couple than Drew and May or Misty and Ash.
Now, I know what you guys and gals are thinking, why would pokeshippers and contestshippers CONTINUE to read a story that ends in a shipping that they wouldn't like? Well, the same question could be asked for stories such as May's Crush by PikamasterADV. I'm sure that a few contestshippers, pokeshippers, and POTENTIAL contestshippers and pokeshippers have been converted to Advanceshippers from that story, so we can do the same, except with a ending of Drew and Misty.
To prevent any bias before reading the story, I suggest that we do not tell the readers that the story will end with Drew and Misty. We don't even have to label the story as contestshipping and pokeshipping; instead, we should IMPLY contestshipping and pokeshipping IN THE SUMMARY, so as to not be accused of lying about the shipping.
An important suggestion, as much as I support Advanceshipping, DO NOT MAKE IT ADVANCESHIPPING, because...
1. The contestshipper's and pokeshipper's possible hatred for Advanceshipping will drive them away from reading the story.
2. It is much more easier to have a story focused around one shipping than two, and Drew and Misty, being the point of the story, will be the only shipping that will result in the end.
3. Having Advanceshipping will take away focus from Drew and Misty.
DO NOT have an Advanceshipper post the story; instead, have a PROMINENT multishipper post it instead. As I have learned from Lara's contestshipping fic, contestshipping fics from Advanceshipping authors don't gain much attention.
And lastly, don't bash pokeshipping or contestshipping in the story; instead, give them an ideal, "soft" ending, so that it will not make the contestshippers and pokeshippers angry.
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Post by LuciferIX on May 8, 2008 13:22:48 GMT 12
Its not a bad idea Praetor but the story would have to be of a quality that approaches or even surpasses "May's Crush" to get them to consider the pairing as a possibility. Especially for the fanatic followers. At the moment a simple fact still remains that Drew and Misty have never met in the anime. Though its not all that important for fanon shippings many of the Poke and Contestshippers like them because they believe that they are already or will become canon.
I'm not saying that its impossible, but its just unlikely.
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 13:27:56 GMT 12
^ I know, but remember that a story as good as May's Crush was authored by only one person, PikamasterADV. So what if we combine all the efforts of the best authors we can find to co-author this story?
It may well surpass May's Crush with the cooperation.
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Post by cascade88 on May 8, 2008 13:29:28 GMT 12
You are right, of course, the writers may be shippers themselves (though we probably won't know what kind of shipper. We should ask.), but the question is what do the writers consider a priority- the fanbase that would stop watching the show if it becomes more Advanceshippy or their personal shipping preferences. Sp1derp1g and Ninja44 - How about promoting Drew and Misty (waterflowershipping, I think)? With all the pokeshipping and contestshipping fics they have written, the thought of Drew and Misty as a couple must have crossed their minds at least a few times. While this may not split the pokeshippers and contestshippers apart, it would do something even better, which is getting them to support another ship. Sure it may be a "crack" pairing, but it can gain as much popularity as ikarishipping. With Paul's attitude staying the same, how would ikarishipping become canon? While I don't like the idea of pairing Drew up with another person (because of his personality and attitude), other people clearly don't think the same way. So if they are willing to pair Drew up with someone, why not Misty? All we need is a quality story that begins with pokeshipping and contestshipping and end with waterflowershipping to convince readers that Drew and Misty make a better couple than Drew and May or Misty and Ash. Now, I know what you guys and gals are thinking, why would pokeshippers and contestshippers CONTINUE to read a story that ends in a shipping that they wouldn't like? Well, the same question could be asked for stories such as May's Crush by PikamasterADV. I'm sure that a few contestshippers, pokeshippers, and POTENTIAL contestshippers and pokeshippers have been converted to Advanceshippers from that story, so we can do the same, except with a ending of Drew and Misty. To prevent any bias before reading the story, I suggest that we do not tell the readers that the story will end with Drew and Misty. We don't even have to label the story as contestshipping and pokeshipping; instead, we should IMPLY contestshipping and pokeshipping IN THE SUMMARY, so as to not be accused of lying about the shipping. An important suggestion, as much as I support Advanceshipping, DO NOT MAKE IT ADVANCESHIPPING, because... 1. The contestshipper's and pokeshipper's possible hatred for Advanceshipping will drive them away from reading the story. 2. It is much more easier to have a story focused around one shipping than two, and Drew and Misty, being the point of the story, will be the only shipping that will result in the end. 3. Having Advanceshipping will take away focus from Drew and Misty. DO NOT have an Advanceshipper post the story; instead, have a PROMINENT multishipper post it instead. As I have learned from Lara's contestshipping fic, contestshipping fics from Advanceshipping authors don't gain much attention. And lastly, don't bash pokeshipping or contestshipping in the story; instead, give them an ideal, "soft" ending, so that it will not make the contestshippers and pokeshippers angry. While that is an interesting idea, I have to say, I'm pretty sure that most of the die hard Pokeshippers won't go for that simply for the fact that Misty is not with Ash. That's of course not speaking for all of them, but the majority have a major issue with Ash being with any girl who is not Misty, so I'm pretty sure they'd likewise have an issue with Misty being with any guy who is not Ash. I know I used to be that way when I supported Pokeshipping--narrowminded as all get out. I mean, there might be some who'll go for Drew/Misty, but overall, I don't see it taking the place of their beloved primary ship. Of course, I could be wrong about this. Who knows.
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 13:43:51 GMT 12
Well, I am going with the thought that because pokeshippers favor Drew for obvious reasons (Getting May away from Ash) and vice-versa for the contestshippers and because both type of shippers have written so much stories with Drew and Misty in it, the pokeshippers may have grown to like Drew for more than his purpose, vice-versa for contestshippers. We can take this affinity for each other's characters and use it to get the pokeshippers and contestshippers to support waterflowershipping.
I know that not ALL of the pokeshippers and contestshippers will come to support Drew and Misty, but when most or some contestshippers, pokeshippers, and potential pokeshippers and contestshippers turn to support Drew and Misty, then it will be well worth the effort.
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Post by Elite4James on May 8, 2008 17:55:15 GMT 12
So what if we combine all the efforts of the best authors we can find to co-author this story? It may well surpass May's Crush with the cooperation. It's amazing how many people worship May's Crush. Whilst I did enjoy this story very much (and rank it very highly), I just don't place it on a pedestal and worship it, quoting it like it was some sort of AAMayL Bible. I guess it's a bit like when you go to the movies with friends and you enjoy the movie but not on the same level as they did. They'll buy the special edition DVD when it comes out and I'll probably buy the regular one a month later. I guess I'm that sort of person. Another example, my friends practically creamed their pants when GTA IV came out and are still playing it every waking, non-working hour. I on the other hand played it for about three or four hours and returned it for a refund the same day. It was good, I just didn't think it was worth keeping. But, hey that's just one guy's personal opinion. Don't flame me, because I will simply tell you to get stuffed. Anyways, back on topic... How many here have tried to work on a collaboration? Sometimes it works really well. But it can also be a creative hell on earth. When I was in my final year of High School two of my friends co-wrote a film and it was very taxing and can be difficult. Creative control is not something people will give up for the sake of democracy so easily. As I discovered in that film. Same passion, but very different ideas. I know that if you try to get more than two people to work on it, you're either going to end up with crap or a discontinued project. Speaking from past experience and from what I have seen in the past, I don't think we'd end up with a very good story if we did recruit the best and brightest. In fact the very opposite could very well happen. Too many writers with different ideas could inadvertently create the 'anti-Crush'. In other words a combined effort could unleash some ungodly, misshapen, well... sh*t. As anti-social as it sounds, sometimes the better stories are ones that are written alone. This is why I distance myself from other people's stories when they ask me to help them write it and when I refuse people who offer their own characters and ideas, if I trust the person enough and have a similar idea in mind I may take it up, however. It is better is way because if my story turns into complete rubbish, I have no one to blame but myself.
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Post by LuciferIX on May 8, 2008 18:36:07 GMT 12
For me I believe that I place "May's Crush" so highly is because it was the first Advanceshipping fanfic that I read and that it simply solidified my support of the shipping.
And the quality of Pikamaster's work is hard to come by at times. As I've said many times before in my reviews, the main laking feature of many fanfics that keeps them from their full potential is not enough detail in the story. There is a major difference in a fic that you can picture clearly in your head and others where you have to try and fill in the details yourself as the story neglects to address them.
Although I'll probably have to read it again to compare it again to some of the more current fics that I've read. I haven't read it in a long time.
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 18:57:33 GMT 12
James, you bring up a valid point, IF the authors have different ideas for a story and they are unable to compromise then we would have them write their own stories. Before we even post a single chapter, the story must be completed and rigorously checked for anything that is lacking. At that point, we would have to set aside our personal feelings for the stories and give it harsh criticism, so it would give the authors many chances to continually polish their stories before release.
When they do release it, it would be a bad idea to post all of the chapters simultaneously. They should release chapters over time to use the attract the attention from people looking for updated stories.
LuciferIX, May's Crush is a good story, but that was written a long time ago. PikamasterADV must have improved his writing skills ever since then. Take the fact that Pikamaster is majoring in English into account, add that to the total time he spent writing, and you would get an idea of how much experience he has gain from writing. Practice makes perfect, so he would be much better now than he was back then. The latest chapters of May's Crush 2 were not as good as some of the chapters that he has written, but it should be clear why- he is hard pressed into keeping up with college and writing stories.
The same goes for other authors.
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Post by LuciferIX on May 8, 2008 19:31:24 GMT 12
To say much more on this topic I need to reread the fic. I have vivid memories of certain parts while others are fuzzy, and its because of the fuzzy areas that I can't completely say anything in a definite manner. All I remember is that so far there are only a few fics that have come close in my mind to what I remember about the story. I can be a harsh critic of fics at times, even if I don't say it in my reviews.
And I just noticed it but the text under your avatar would be more closely associated with my name than your avatar would be. And this fallen angel would be a little too proud to let you steal his job. Just a little comment of mine.
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Post by Praetor on May 8, 2008 20:42:32 GMT 12
You don't have to make references to all the little details; as long as you remember the important parts of the story such as what Drew did to May or the final battle between May and Misty, then you should have enough to comment about. But I guess having more details makes for a deeper and more complex discussion.
Lucifer, the bringer of light? I don't see how that would work. Seeing as light represents the good and the virtuous, and darkness representing evil and vileness, the fallen angel should be the bringer of darkness; not light.
I labeled the archon avatar the Bringer of Light because of the bright psychic fire emanating from it.
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Post by LuciferIX on May 9, 2008 4:10:32 GMT 12
Actually the name Lucifer means "Bringer of Light" in Latin. He may have a different position now but he was once one of the more powerful Archangels in heaven. He is the fallen angel of light. And I figured that that was the reason that you labeled that, it was just a funny observation that I made.
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Post by narutoninja44 on May 9, 2008 8:07:23 GMT 12
-shakes head from all the reading- Holy Moses, you guys are crazy with the posting when you want to.@.@
Okay so basically we're saying to deplete our little contestshipping/pokeshipping fanbases, is to create a fic on a higher level than May's Crush? And for it to start with something simple and whatnot with pokeshipping and contestshipping, but end in waterflowershipping? Smart, very smart actually. But seriously, even if I actually TRIED I could never reach May's Crush's potential or reveiwers.=P Co-Writing could work, I've seen it work EXTREMELY well in the KND fandom. Especially this one story, written by two geniuses even though there is only two real chapters. Ahem, anyways, it could be like a movie/animating crew actually. Some one could provide plots/twists/ideas for the story, another could write a so called 'script', then there is the person who plays out the descriptions and writes it roughly, after that we get a great author to type it all up into a great story format. Get a few beta-readers to edit it for us and you have a story. Of course it could backfire. That's why if we did that, we might need two of each part, also we'll need someone to post it up on a brand-new account on FF.net. Then we're pretty much set. We would need people who could do their jobs quickly, use their aspects to an advantage. Like I am an idea person, I plan and see things play out. But when it comes to doing it, Ima stumped. That's why I get friends to get the stuff for me, organize and complete while I present new ideas for them to complete.
But that's just me and another crazy idea...like I said, I think not do.
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